Asexuality: An interview with Yasmin Benoit

Speaker 1: Annie Fry

Hello and welcome to this podcast. My name is Annie Fry and I'm a health content editor at Bupa. I'll be joined by Yasmin Benoit, model and asexual activist. Yasmin will cover what asexuality is and discuss how being asexual might affect someone's experiences in the workplace, and their access to healthcare. Thank you so much for joining us today, Yasmin. Would you like to just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2: Yasmin Benoit

Thanks. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm Yasmin Benoit. I'm a model, asexual activist, writer, speaker, media consultant and researcher at Stonewall, and more recently, a visiting fellow at King's College London's Policy Institute.

Annie: Great. Thank you. And just to start off for anyone who doesn't know, what is asexuality?

Yasmin: Asexuality is a term to describe those who experience little to no sexual attraction towards anyone, regardless of their gender, so it falls under the A in LGBTQIA plus and it's a type of sexual orientation.

Annie: That's a great definition. Thank you. And do you mind telling us a little bit about your own experience with asexuality?

Yasmin: Yeah. So I always say that I realised I was asexual when everyone else realised that they weren't. So like early puberty, I think is when people's sexuality starts to kind of become directed towards other people. And that was the part that I wasn't really experiencing. And I didn't discover the actual term until I was about 15.

But people didn't actually believe me until I was about 22, so it was quite a long process in terms of successfully coming out as I would say, it's not something that you know is included in sex education in schools. It's not something that really had much in the way of media representation at that time. The only information I could find was in like niche corners of the Internet. So even I wasn't entirely sure how legitimate asexuality was back then.

Annie: So is it something that you kind of felt and then researched to find if there was a term to describe how you were feeling?

Yasmin: Sort of. It was more so when I was 11 because I was just working out that I was not feeling the same way as everyone else, I had this ingenious idea that if I went to an all girl's school. And there were no boys then no one would care about like sexuality or dating or anything and everyone would just be like playing together whimsically in the playground.

And if anyone's ever been to an all-girl’s school, that's not the vibe. I think everyone felt quite deprived of boys and I feel like the sexual energy was actually quite heightened. And thus it was very obvious to everybody that I was not on the same wavelength. And it was other people's inquiries that made me kind of be forced to do the research and come up with an explanation and find the terminology rather than my own inclination to do that.

Annie: That's really interesting that you felt that you needed to sort of understand it for other people rather than yourself. That's interesting. That leads on to my next question, generally how well understood would you say asexuality is?

Yasmin: I think it's still very misunderstood and it's interesting because that's not something where it's like, OK, well in more like heteronormative communities, they don't know about it. But within the queer community, they do - like nobody knows anything. The awareness level is pretty much universally inept.

Regardless, I've done work all over the world, I think everyone’s at exactly the same starting point. And when you kind of look at how conversations about sexuality have expanded in the past, like five years, 10 years, or like how gender identities and terminologies and all these things - they're now such commonplace knowledge. But asexuality has literally been like a Groundhog Day for about 100 years.

Annie: Yeah. So you definitely think that there needs to be more awareness raised, I guess for everyone to understand what it is?

Yasmin: Yeah, because sexuality, you know, it's not just you're attracted to this or you're attracted to that. I think what you're not attracted to is also intrinsic and as fundamental to your sexuality.

But for lots of people, not only is it just a case of not knowing what asexuality is, but it makes life harder for asexual people because the assumption is that there must be something physically or mentally wrong with them. And then people feel like, you know, they can't live happier fulfilling lives. And there's the medicalization aspects, and there's the stigma. And then the mental health issues that that causes.

It has a big effect and I think it also ties into making people in general feel like if they're not experiencing sexuality in a certain way, then there's something wrong with them. And I feel like asexuality is kind of like the last or one of the last kind of very unacceptable ones universally and that no matter what community you go into, there will be people that are fundamentally against it.

Annie: Yeah. And would you say the aromantic side is as commonly misunderstood as asexuality, because its kind of less known about, even more so than asexuality.

Yasmin: I think so in the sense that we haven't even got on to the conversation about romantic orientations really, even though technically it's something that, you know, everyone is experiencing. There's this sexual orientation, there's romantic orientation. Like if you're a lesbian, then the chances are that you're romantically and sexually attracted to women, it's kind of intrinsic to most people's experiences.

Sometimes sexual orientation lines up, sometimes it doesn't, but it's just part of the everyday experience. But most people don't really know the language around that or really think about the distinction that much, and so at least for asexuality, I can kind of lead with that, because our whole society is based on sexual orientations primarily. Whereas for aromanticism you kind of have to open up a whole other can of worms before you could even get that conversation going.

Annie: Yeah. No, that makes that makes a lot of sense. So how would you say being asexual can affect people in the workplace? And are there any measures in place to protect people who identify as asexual?

Yasmin: Well, there are no measures in place in this country in particular to protect people who are asexual. We're not recognised in the Equality Act based on the way it defines sexual orientation. It's literally being attracted to men, women or both. Like that's how it's defined. So consequently, we are also not really recognised by the UN or not recognised by organisations like ILGA.

We're not protected from medicalization because we're not a protected characteristic. We're not protected by hate crime laws either. And so, there is no inclination to put us into any kind of workplace policy. And I think that most people can't recognise what acephobia looks like to begin with, or even entirely define what asexuality is, let alone kind of making it an inclusive environment for asexual people. And consequently, I mean you are experiencing things like workplace bullying or inappropriate comments or harassment.

When I was working with Stonewall, we did a research paper specifically into that phenomenon and lots of the case studies that we had when people were having those experiences or workplaces that kind of had like a more sexualized environment. Especially like conversationally speaking, they couldn't complain or when they did complain, they were like, well, we don't recognise this as being a thing. So, what do you? Complaining about like, how is that harassment?

If someone's asking you if there’s something's physically wrong with you because I'm wondering the same thing, there's nothing to tell me that it's wrong to wonder that because I'm looking at medical manuals and they're telling me there might be.

Equality acts are not saying anything different, so all of these thing’s kind of have a really big knock-on effect. And as you know, I think lots of workplaces nowadays, they do have DI, they do have pride networks, they do have things in place to make sure people are educated about what to say and what not to say to certain groups. But asexuality is not one of those groups, so you don't really have the same kind of leverage in that sense.

Annie: Yeah, and moving forward, what do you think could push that kind of change to make it a part of the Equality Acts and something that can be sort of delineated across all companies rather than just a select few who are more inclusive?

Yasmin: I mean, changing the Equality Act is definitely a whole thing. That is something I've been speaking to a lot of politicians about, and I think most agree. I mean, the Equality Act’s in 2010, there hasn't been much in the way of amendments to it since then, like, even things to do with gender identity and all these things, so much has changed Since 2010.

Things could be amended in it, but I feel like we are in the kind of political climate where it's probably more likely that they would want to take things out or however, then put things in. But I still feel like because, you know, even once that is in there, which hopefully will be at some point in the future. It's going to take a while for that to trickle down to all the different places, so you still kind of have to do the work on the ground to ensure people know what you're talking about.

And so you kind of still have to be able to encourage workplaces to pretty much, as I always say to people, just keep the exact same energy that you have towards all the other orientations.

Like most people know the acronym, but they don't get past the first 4 letters. And if these things are impacting these communities, chances are the exact same things are impacting the other communities. So all those provisions that you've put in place, all that training that you decided to do all that explicit mentioning that you've done in your policies and the education you've done around that. Just do the exact same thing for asexuality, and then everyone can have the exact same experiences at work.

Because nowadays people spend so much of their time at work and around people at work, and then that's a big chunk of your life where you can't be open about yourself. And if there's one thing that I think most data suggests is that if you do not feel comfortable in your workplace. You're not going to be performing as well and It's not going to be good for the company and it's not going to be good for the employees either.

Annie: Exactly. That's a really good point. I think if you don't feel yourself at work like you say, you're not going to be bringing your best self to work. You're not going to be able to perform well. Also, that could be a big game changer. If you don't feel accepted in your sexuality and who you are, then that can be a game changer for kind of what you do. So yeah it’s definitely really important.

You mentioned your Stonewall report, which I actually read, which is a very interesting read. I definitely recommend people read that. And you touched on the medicalisation of asexuality, which you mentioned just now. And how it can almost be treated as a problem that needs fixing by certain healthcare professionals, which I found quite shocking actually. I wondered if you could just tell us a bit more about what the medicalisation of asexuality actually means, and how being asexual might affect someone's access to healthcare.

Yasmin: Yeah. So, I mean, I think throughout history, most of us have seen and known that there has been a tendency to medicalize sexuality that fits outside of the heteronormative bubble. I mean, homosexuality was medicalized and considered as being a disorder that needed curing for a long time. And conversion therapy. There's many campaigns about that still to get that banned in the UK.

But nowadays, for other orientations, that's mainly happening in religious settings where they think that you can fix or cure sexuality by praying the gay away and things like that. But for asexuality, we're not as far ahead in terms of that. Our stuff is mainly happening within healthcare because we still have that same medicalization. It wasn't changed for us. Homosexual activity was legalised in the 70s.

We didn't have that same movement. We didn't have that same awareness. So we were just kind of left to it. So if you were to describe asexuality to a medical professional, wherever it's a GP or a therapist or whatever. And say, I don't experience sexual attraction to people. There is, like literally a disorder in the International Classification of Diseases and the DSM that's mainly used in the US, which says if you're not experiencing sexual desire towards other people enough, that is considered as being a sexual dysfunction that needs fixing, and so.

When I was doing the research of Stonewall into this, because the national LGBT survey in 2018 that the government did found that asexual people are 10% more likely to be offered or to undergo conversion therapy than other orientations. So I was kind of digging into like, how that's happening and where that's happening.

And I noticed that ours was entirely healthcare related, and it was specifically happening to asexual women and asexual people with vaginas. More because, as you know, when we go to doctors, they're always going to ask, are you pregnant? Are you sexually active, like, pretty normal questions you have to have smear tests and those kinds of things.

And when you say, no, I'm not sexually active or don't worry, I'm not going to be pregnant. And then they're like, wait, hold on, why? Because over the age of 25, it is clinically expected that you are. And if you were to give an honest answer to that, then the conversation goes from, I don't know, whatever broken toe you have that made you go there to hold on. Alarm bells are ringing. There must be something wrong with you. We're going to be going down this avenue now, and we're not going to give you access to the healthcare you're looking to have until we resolve this thing. Because this is the thing that we're seeing as the priority.

And there was work done in the US to kind of add a little bit of a qualifier to the DSM to say, you know, if the person identifies as asexual and don't diagnose them. But still loopholes around that, that means a person has to know about asexuality before they're in that setting.

But within the UK and Europe, we do not have that same classification. And so it is unfortunately common, like I've been hearing about this since I started activism in 2018.

I have people tell me all the time that these things are happening to them and they're being forced to have like invasive genital exams, cause the doctor's convinced there must be something wrong with their vagina. And that's what it is, or, their therapist is trying to tell them that, oh, well, he must be repressed.

I think I have one case study where they said, oh, well, maybe you're sexually attracted to your father or something. And that's caused you to not be experiencing sexual attraction the right way. When I say the right way, there was not a single case where the therapists were trying to make more lesbians. They were entirely trying to encourage the asexual women to be sexually attracted to men, and that was the basis of what the psychosexual therapy was.

And I think that for any other orientation, we would recognise what that is and what that means. So for asexuality, it's not the same, including, you know, giving medication that you don't need to increase your libido, even though it's not a libido related issue. So yeah, it definitely damages asexual people's willingness to be open in healthcare settings.

It makes them nervous to seek out mental health services or therapies or to have things like cervical screenings and all these kind of things because these things are such a widespread thing that we talk about within the community, but the conversation doesn't go outside it very much.

So that's kind of where I keep talking to healthcare professionals because I think that it needs to be a conversation there as well.

Annie: Yeah, that's really interesting actually. So someone who identifies as asexual, when they reveal that they are asexual, do you think it more gets pushed on them kind of that there's a physical problem or maybe does it ever kind of go down a mental health route? Where maybe the healthcare professional would think that they need mental health help. Or is it more like, oh, they think it's a problem with libido, or I guess it can kind of be different.

Yasmin: I mean it could be both because, I feel like when people think about sexual dysfunctions as they kind of incorrectly consider as being sexual disorders. They do think that maybe it's a psychological block that's causing it. Especially if you know they do the invasive genital examinations and they're like, well, there's nothing wrong with your vagina.

So why aren't you doing anything then? It must be your mind. So it tends to go down either of those routes or at least start in the physical and then end in the mental, with attempts to, I guess just kind of work out why it is that you're not sexually attracted to men enough.

That’s usually the approach that it takes, but then it just makes people that you know or probably already feel a bit uncertain about, how socially acceptable their sexual orientation is. And you're literally telling them that there's something mentally wrong with them or they're not going to have a happy life until they fix it. Start having sex with men, as you should do, and it's crazy that that's still a thing in this day and age.

Annie: Yeah, definitely. I think either way, it's just damaging really, I mean, even that experience is damaging to someone's mental health, whatever orientation they are. So, yeah, that's quite sad. It's something that needs to be looked at. So as a society, how do you think we can change attitudes to asexuality?

Yasmin: I think it just needs to be something that's included in conversations the same way as the others. I mean, I guess we just had a Conservative government who tried to roll these things back, but looking at you know, how sex education has improved in schools over. The past few years, like when I was in school, sex education was mainly like don't get pregnant. Like that was pretty much all of it. It didn't really go into like, different sexual orientations or anything like that.

Nowadays, you know, you can learn like what being gay means. You might even learn what being trans means. But they don't get to asexuality, and the thing is, the internet's available and lots of kids nowadays increasingly are discovering what asexuality is.

But then when it comes to, you know, the people in positions of responsibility, they don't have that same information. I think that having that inclination to put that same energy in. We have awareness days and stuff throughout the year like everyone else, but it might not necessarily be on the calendars. Existing campaigns like banning conversion therapy, lots of places are actively supporting and talking about that. No one really paid much mind to whether asexual people were included.

No one really thought to check if we’re included in the ban, which we’re not. So yeah, I feel like it really is just a case of just keeping that exact same energy and just not getting caught up in like, OK, well, we did a pride thing and we put a rainbow up or we did like minimal effort. Or, you know, these are the things we hear people talking about.

So I guess that's what we should be talking about. It should also be a question of what are people talking about as much, like how intersexual is this conversation? Are we just having the same conversations with the same people over and over and over again when there must be other things happening within the community? Like, I think not just the asexual community, but the intersex community.

They didn't really get much of a look in half the time. Everyone that kind of falls beyond the cube. Does it really get that much airtime? So that just means that not just a case of, oh, well, you know, you don't get to do the same events or whatever, but you literally do not have the same protections and you're like, 20-30 years behind everyone else.

Annie: So how are you using your own platform to advocate for asexuality?

Yasmin: I mean, gosh, I feel like my technique is the kind of try and plug as many holes as possible. And I think that, you know, when people talk about representation, they're usually talking about it in the media sense, which is definitely where a chunk of my work has been. I've worked with Netflix on sex education, and I've done media campaigns and interviews and all that kind of stuff. But then there's also, for example, we're not represented in research data like, there's not much research into asexuality.

I think in the Community, we're still citing papers in like, 2004, because that's one of the last times anyone did a big study into asexuality. So for me, doing work with King's College London and doing the academic side of things. That kind of ties into it, or writing for different platforms or having hashtag social media campaigns like this is what asexual looks like, which I started, I think back in 2018 to show the diversity of the community.

There's that side of things. And then there's also, doing things with magazines. And it's kind of incorporating the modelling that I was doing anyway before the activism, and also using that as a way of expanding our representation and the zeitgeist because it, as I said, it tends to be very, very specific. So yeah, I've definitely used my platform to not only raise awareness, but to take the conversation a bit further because I feel like most of the time it's very 101 like places they just want to know the definition and then they don't really care about anything else. But it's like, I think, you know, we can talk about homosexuality, you know, just like what does gay mean? Like, there are other things aside from that.

And also, I think expanding the conversation outside of the usual spaces, like I just did an article late last year for Playboy for example and people were like why would you speak there? Like that's not the usual audience. Like exactly. It's not the usual audience. Like, I don't just want to speak to, you know, queer teenagers. They kind of know. You kind of kind of get ahead of it or go to countries like when I was doing some work in Poland, Germany and Lithuania. And the conversation isn't happening as much, but that's why I think it's important to do it because it's not all in the UK and the US.

Annie: Yeah. Did you find much difference in awareness between the UK and other countries? Or is it kind of a widespread lack of awareness?

Yasmin: There's definitely a widespread lack of awareness. But then I think the climates in different countries are quite different. Like when I was doing some work in Serbia and I was doing pride there like, you know, our prides here in the way asexuality is in the conversation.

Like, I led pride in London last year. When you're doing pride in other countries you can't even speak without people firing like fire bottles of cocktails at you, it’s a different vibe, like the safety aspect and how much your government like their mayors, aren't going to be putting on parades in the middle of the city. It's much more, you know, it's very much almost like how pride was for us in the 70s.

Annie: And finally, what resources are out there for people to receive support, whether they identify as asexual or whether someone's just unsure yet?

Yasmin: I think I would always suggest there's the asexual visibility in education network. Those are the longest running asexual organisation. They have information on there. Plus Stonewall, which is where you can find my report as well. They have an Ace Hub that has a lot of information.

There's other things like, you know, the Trevor project. Glad, Galop. They'll have information or even or if you're looking for, like books and stuff. Refusing compulsory sexuality by Shonda Jay Brown's a good one, or ace by Angela Chen's a good one. So yeah, there are lots of kind of things online that you can find. Or of course, you can check out my stuff and then you can find a whole bunch of things.

Annie: Great. Thank you so much. We will make sure to include those links in the article. Thank you again so much for speaking with me today and for sharing some really interesting insights, it’s definitely an important topic to talk about. It's important to kind of let people know that there are resources out there if they need any support or want to learn more. We'll leave it there for today, but yeah, thank you so much for joining.

Yasmin:Thanks for having me.