Academy for Small Businesses I Bupa UK

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The Academy gives you leading health and wellbeing insights that will help support you in growing your business. Watch virtual events where our panel of experts discuss health and wellbeing issues – specifically for small businesses.

Events cover a range of key issues such as introducing a workplace mental health plan, reducing absence and building resilience as a small business owner to help your business thrive.

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In our latest series, founder of Holly & Co and Not On The High Street, Holly Tucker MBE, explores a range of key topics.

Hello and welcome to the Bupa Academy for Small Businesses.

I'm your host Holly Tucker, and today I'm joined by our expert panel to talk about young persons' mental health and how this affects parents and carers in the workplace.

In the first part of today's session, I'll be speaking to Dr.

Naveen Puri, medical director at Bupa and Gerry O'Hare, legal director at WorkNest.

In the second part of the session, I'll be joined by Amy White, founder of Spectrum SENDvocate, who will share her firsthand experience of working at a small business whilst facing these challenges as a parent.

I'm delighted to welcome our first guest, Dr.

Naveen Puri, medical director at Bupa.

And Gerry O'Hare, legal director at WorkNest.

Welcome.

Hello.

Hi.

First question is for you Dr.

Naveen.

Recent research has revealed that 18% of children aged between seven and 16 and 22% of young people age 17 to 24 have a probable mental health disorder.

Can you please start us off by explaining what this means and the impact it actually has on parents?

Sure, well thank you for the question, Holly.

I think what those statistics you highlight to us, bear in mind, is that mental health can affect young people just as it affects older people as well and adults and people that we're familiar with.

And the ways those conditions present can be variable.

So sometimes they'll be familiar to us such as depression or anxiety, but sometimes they may be conditions and features to those conditions that may be unique to a child.

So if we consider anxiety for example, you know, children are bombarded with things on social media and their phones suddenly, you know, open up a a world of anxiety which perhaps people of our generation just didn't have to contend with as young people.

Other conditions that we find to be quite common amongst children might be things like eating disorders or challenges around eating, things like body image, those sorts of things can be a real concern as well.

While neuro diversities are not necessarily mental health conditions, certainly undiagnosed neuro diversities like dyslexia, ADHD, autism, for example, can certainly present with mental health features.

So for example, if you've got a child with dyslexia whose teacher is constantly saying to them, "come on now, read like everybody else and keep up with the rest of the class," actually that can have a really big mental health impact and burden on that child.

Other things that we might consider social isolation can be really big for children as well.

Interestingly, we live in the age of social media, but actually it probably disconnects us more than it connects us, if I'm being honest.

And then I think any conversation around children's mental health and wellbeing wouldn't be complete if we didn't consider the most severe end of the spectrum as well.

Things like self-harm and suicidal ideation are also common amongst children as well.

So it's really important that we have a recognition of that.

If I may, let me present you back with some figures as well, which I find really fascinating in preparation for this conversation.

We know that two in three parents are really concerned about their child's mental health and of that two-thirds of parents who are concerned are whopping 60% consider that it has an impact on their mental health as well.

So it's not just the child who's affected, it's also the family and their carers as well.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And then even more shocking to me was hearing that about 87% of those parents who are concerned reckon that their child probably has more than one mental health condition at play.

So it isn't just a case of a one size fits all approach, but rather considering the holistic needs of a child or a young person and their mental health needs as well.

So what does all of this mean?

I think, you know.

.

I don't wanna paint a bleak picture, but it's important that first of all there's a recognition.

A, that children can be affected and also that their parents and caregivers who are your employees if you're a small business, can also be affected as well and bring that then to the workplace.

And so I think it's incumbent for workplaces to recognise this and to recognise and acknowledge that there is an impact and to consider what they can do about that.

Gerry, a question for you.

Do small businesses have any legal obligations to parents and carers in the workplace who are caring for a young child with mental health difficulties?

Yeah, thanks Holly.

Well, employers have a general duty of care towards their workers.

That's first and foremost really important.

But there are also a number of pieces of legislation which provide for time off to care for dependents and I've chat through some of them now with you.

First up we've got parental leave which provides for up to 18 weeks of unpaid time off for each child up to the age of 18.

So quite a lot of leave, albeit as I said, is unpaid.

And that's for parents and adoptive parents and for anyone who has, or who's expect to have to look after a child.

A couple of things to note there, although there's 18 weeks available, only four weeks can be used in any one leave year, right?

So that's quite an important thing to note.

And also in addition to that, they can only be taken in blocks of one week.

So the parent or the adoptive parent couldn't take the odd day here off and they're under the parental leave scheme.

If the request for time off is unduly.

.

Disruptive for the employer, then the employer can request that the employee delays the taking of that leave for up to six months.

Then second up hot off the press, we've got carer's leave.

And this is for an employee who has a dependent with a long-term care need, for example, a child who has a mental ill health condition and is expecting to need care for more than three months.

The entitlement here is much less, it's only one week in a rolling 12 month period versus the 18 weeks under the parental leave scheme.

But unlike the parental leave scheme, employees can take the odd day here and there and in fact they can take a half day here and there as well to help care for the child.

Again, in terms of notice, so if an employee wanted to take benefit and utilise the carer's leave, they only have to give twice as much notice as that what they wish to take.

So for example, if I wanted to take a day's off carer's leave, I would need to give my employer two days advance warning of that.

And then thirdly, and perhaps the most utilised type of leave is what's known as time off for dependence.

And this is effectively emergency time off.

So where something unforeseen has happened, like your child has fallen sick overnight and the employee can't make it into work, that's where they would get to use emergency time off for dependence.

And then finally, whilst not time off, where there are the flexible working provisions which have been around for many years, but which are now a day one right.

So as soon as you become an employee, you're entitled to make a flexible working request.

And more than that, you can make two requests in a 12 month period, which is pretty good.

Now a real point I would highlight there though is that a request to a request to make a flexible working application does not equal a right to have that request granted because the legislation does actually set out a number of fairgrounds for refusing that request.

So there are lots of ways in which employees can get time off to care for their children.

That was so interesting.

Back to you Dr.

Naveen.

Why is it important for small businesses to support caregivers of young people experiencing mental health difficulties?

Yeah, I think that's a really important question.

I mean, when you consider that young people's mental health isn't just confined to them but also to the family within which they exist, their carers, their parents will also be impacted by it too, it only follows that that then comes to work sometimes as well.

And we recognise that the impact of that can be felt in a number of different ways.

We know that for parents who are preoccupied with concern around their child or young person at home, they can often be, you know, at work but not necessarily performing their functions as best they possibly can.

We know that sometimes standards can slip, they may make more mistakes, they may even take time off and take sickness leave when they shouldn't really be doing that, but actually addressing the root cause at its core.

What we tend to find is that sometimes there can be a real embarrassment or a shame as well and sometimes parents don't wanna speak about this, there is still a stigma around parenting and if your child is suffering with a condition, sometimes there's almost this sort of sense that what am I doing wrong and what will my peers and my coworkers think about me for having a child who has depression or anxiety or any number of mental health conditions.

So what we find employers can do is open up a culture around that, it just takes one leader to say, "you know what?

I've had a really tough weekend with my young person at home," to suddenly have everyone realise that this is a commonality amongst all of us and actually starting a conversation can be really fruitful.

Within Bupa, we have quite a few networks and one of the networks that's really strong and really vibrant is our parents and carers network where actually people sit together over a lunch or over an informal coffee and just share their experiences and challenges.

And sometimes it can be really humanising to recognise that leader in your team or that really inspirational person from another team that you look up to is faced by the same challenges you are as well.

So starting a culture and a conversation around what goes on I think can be really helpful.

We know that parents make up a big part of the workforce as well.

So when you consider working parents, 75% of mothers and 92% of fathers make up the workplace.

And so it's only gonna follow that, a certain proportion of those are gonna be impacted by the mental health needs of their young people at home as well.

So for workplaces to recognise that I think is really, really important.

Yeah, really, really important.

Gerry, what are some of the risks though of not supporting employees experiencing these challenges in the workplace?

Well, there are quite a few, frankly.

Yes, I could think there are.

And perhaps one of the biggest risks and concerns that employers have is that an employee will take them to an employment tribunal and allege that they've suffered discrimination at work.

And you quite often see these things reported in the press.

So if a tribunal claim is raised, it goes to the tribunal and the judge finds against the employer and that they have discriminated against the employee, well, that can have significant impact on financial award against the company.

It can be picked up by the press.

So there's potential reputational damage which can wreak absolute havoc.

But these are not the only risks in failing to support your employees.

You've also got to bear in mind that, well, if you lose a tribunal claim for example, or even if you're seen to not be supporting employee, that's going to have an impact on performance, staff morale, staff loyalty, why would you want to continue working for someone who isn't supporting a fellow colleague, someone that works in your business who's going through one of the most difficult times in their life.

I wouldn't want to continue working there.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And what that can do to a culture, as you were saying, it really has that knock on effect and potentially very hard to come back from as well because these things should be in place.

Dr.

Naveen, 12% of working parents who are concerned about their children's mental health have considered reducing their working hours.

I can imagine why to support their child or their children, and 8% reporting that they'd even considered quitting their jobs all together.

I've actually known some of these, women particularly, who have considered this.

How can small businesses support these working parents?

Yeah, well it's interesting that we have research that showed that about 35% of people in the workplace expected their workplaces to be able to respond to this.

So this is definitely a conversation that's been cried out for and what you speak to there about people leaving the workplace or wanting to work more flexibly is such a shame, isn't it?

Just imagine all of that lost talent and resource.

You spent so much time embedding people into your organisation, training them up, having them become experts in their fields and only to lose them because the culture in your workplace didn't support them in their time of need, would be a real shame.

So I think it's incumbent that conversations are starting and I think we've all spoken around creating a culture where those conversations are happening is really key.

We recognise that, as Gerry said, offering flexibility and working with your employees can be really fruitful.

Quite often employees are just so grateful that you've recognised their need, that they'll go above and beyond to try and compensate for that.

So whether that's working at times that suit them such as in the evenings or the weekends or even the early morning, give them the options.

Don't make presumptions around what flexibility means for them.

And flexibility for one employee may be quite different for another too.

So exploring that in its most sort of widest sense I think is really valuable.

I think it's also important to recognise that while you as an organisation wanna generate a culture and an openness around this, remember you aren't the experts in this field then there are people out there who can really assist you with this.

So whether you invest in an employee assistance programme and make your employees aware, they can discuss things like family dynamics and concerns around independence as well as their own health needs and such like is really important.

I think sometimes even when there are EAPs or employee assistance programmes in place, people don't consider that they can make use of them for other people.

So just because it's not a condition you are affected by, the worry of that condition and its impact on you is as worthy of use of those resources as others.

Coming to you, Gerry.

Are there any specific laws or regulations that small businesses need to comply with when implementing initiatives and support to parents and carers of young children with mental health conditions?

Sure, well, I mentioned earlier the various pieces of legislation which give rise to the right, time off for dependence.

But in addition to that, when considering implementing any initiatives or support, it's important to bear in mind the protections that flow from the Equality Act 2010.

This is a big piece of employment legislation that's of interest to employers and in effect, it provides protection for less favourable treatment by virtue of having a protected characteristic.

And what I mean by that, and I'll give an example, say for example sex discrimination 'cause it tends to be female employees who have the main childcare responsibilities.

Another situation might be associative discrimination and that's someone being treated less favourably because of someone else's disability.

In a situation like this, it might be their child's disability.

It's important ultimately to deal with all of these things in a fair and consistent manner 'cause if they don't, that's where employers get into hot trouble.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dr.

Naveen, six in 10 parents reporting concerns about their children's mental health say it has caused their own mental health to suffer.

What struggles might caregivers face themselves as part of this challenge?

From my perspective, we recognise that you can't give from an empty cup.

And so for parents and caregivers there should be a recognition that actually by looking after their own mental health and wellbeing, they're in a position to not only tend to their work responsibilities and needs, but also meet the needs of their young person or children as well.

Within the workplace then, we know that pressures in work can be really, really significant and that will vary from time to time, but also then there's an unpredictability of the needs at home as well.

And so I think a recognition for our workplace is that pressures at work can sometimes come at a time and the worst time when perhaps things are really bad at home, it should be key.

Recognise how your employees work day to day.

And I think getting to know your employees is really useful here because you'll know what normal for them is.

So if they're suddenly more quieter or taking more personal calls or just not responding to emails as quickly as you might ordinarily expect, there may be other times more reasons for that, but it could be because there's lots going on behind the scenes and so open up a conversation, starting a dialogue can be really helpful there.

Emotional instability is another factor as well.

Sometimes we find that when people are not quite themselves and they're worrying excessively, they may present differently.

.

Emotionally as well.

They may be more concerned or tearful, they may be more angry or quick to snap, they may become more socially withdrawn as well.

So again, looking at emotional cues can be really helpful.

Remember when somebody has someone at home who they're concerned by, it can impact those relationships massively.

So not only is there a relationship with that child or young person affected, it may also affect their relationship with their spouse or partner, which ordinarily may be a source of supporting comfort but suddenly becomes very strained.

And so the removal of that support can be really significant.

And if there are other children at home as well or other young people, the impact on them can be felt as well.

And that in turn has knock on effects as well.

And sometimes it's just the perfect storm where, you know, all these relationships being affected just lead to.

.

Absolutely things getting worse and worse.

And so really trying to understand and appreciate that impact on them can be so, so helpful.

And sometimes as an employer you may not have an answer or a solution, but just the recognition itself can go a long way.

Sometimes as a doctor I often feel I wanna do something for a patient in front of me, but sometimes just being there to listen to them and let them offload during the, you know, period of a consultation in itself can be very therapeutic.

So consider as an employee what you can do to be therapeutically valuable to your employer as well.

The last thing I'd say is these parents and caregivers will often have a lot of commitments as well.

So things like hospital appointments, varying their child or young person to therapy sessions, for example, having to attend, you know, parent teacher meetings because another concern has arisen which the school want to have a conversation around, this could be really time consuming and quite unpredictable.

And so giving your employee the flexibility to attend to those commitments and not making them feel bad or guilty for doing so and allowing them to work around them I think can be a really useful way forward as well.

Absolutely.

Gerry, how should a small business owner best support an employee returning to work after caring for their child?

Because I can imagine they might be exhausted, emotional, maybe want to talk about it, not talk about it, a little bit like coming back from a maternity.

.

Like a period of time away from the office.

Yeah, absolutely.

Employees will naturally be apprehensive about returning to work.

So from a practical point of view, I would say to employers to touch base with their employees, to reach out before they're due to return to check in on them, ask them how they're doing.

You're not necessarily asking any personal questions but just showing concern and empathy to the employee.

And during that conversation you can have a chat about, well, what might a return to work actually look like.

If they've been off for quite a period, a couple of months say, then it might make sense to agree with the employee an actual return to work plan.

So what would the return to work look like?

Will they come back in a phase return basis?

So rather than coming back straight away full time, might over a period of four weeks, they slowly build up their days so that after four weeks, say, they're back in full time.

Do they need any amended duties or hours to help with what's going on at home as well?

It's actually just showing a little bit of human concern for your employee.

If your teams are members of.

.

Or eligible to Bupa services, then they can access the Bupa Growth Plus, which is a dedicated wellbeing telephone service for business owners all through one telephone number where they can speak to experts.

So I'd highly recommend that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr.

Naveen, in a recent survey, 66% of respondents said they would like support from their employer if their child was struggling with mental health and or emotional wellbeing issues.

What can a line manager do specifically though to support working parents and carers, you know, faced with these challenges?

Sometimes line managers can feel quite overwhelmed and not know themselves what to do.

They want to help but just aren't aware of what resources are out there.

And so the kind of things I might recommend are what you have in place already.

So employee assistance programmes, access to mental health support as well.

Within Bupa we have free inline manager guides and resources including lots of 10 minute bite-sized videos.

I've seen a few of those and they're really easy to digest so I'd certainly recommend those.

We know there are resources online as well.

So while Bupa has an array of information available on its own platforms, so to other organisations as well, and we're very agnostic to those, so please feel free to make use of those if you'd like.

I think it's also important that if you're in a leadership or management position to increase your own literacy and knowledge around mental health because if it's happening to one employee, given the statistics we've shared throughout this, it's probably gonna happen to others in due course as well.

So taking these opportunities as moments to up-skill yourself can be really helpful too.

Absolutely.

Gerry, can you provide any guidance on how small businesses can develop policies and procedures that support caregivers who have children with mental health difficulties?

Yeah, so having a clear wellbeing policy and strategy is really important, but not just having a policy, actually using it and living it 'cause there's nothing worse than having a policy that's hidden in a drawer or at the back of an employee handbook.

If that's the case, it's generally not worth the paper it's written on.

So small businesses and employers up and down the UK really need to have these policies, but live them and really utilise them.

But a well worded policy is one which will make specific reference to parents as well.

So not just employees, it can be focused on parents and the challenges they might have with their children who have mental ill health conditions.

We've spoken quite a bit about having open conversations because there is I think still a bit of a stigma attached to this sort of thing.

It's not like it used to be, but there is still a bit of a stigma attached.

So I always say to my clients, "look, have these open conversations in the workplace to try and get rid of the stigma.

" You can have workshops, you can have peer coffees where people can have a chat about their own experiences and learn through these shared experiences.

And as business owners I would always suggest you lead by example, lead from the top because everybody's watching what you're doing and what you're saying and if you're doing and saying the right things, then that's going to pay absolute dividends in the end.

In terms of the policies themselves, I spoke about a few earlier on, so the time off for dependent, carer's leave and also parental leave, all of those are unpaid.

So remember this is the statutory minimum that employees are entitled to get.

But there's nothing to stop an employer going above and beyond that.

So if possible I would encourage employers to think about going above and beyond and maybe paying for some of that time as well.

What a great suggestion.

And Dr.

Naveen, how can small businesses support employees with their own mental health and their wellbeing?

Well, we know that caregiver and parent burnout is certainly a phenomenon that is under recognised.

You know, we are focusing very much in this conversation the mental health and wellbeing of a child or a young person and that's very important.

But for parenting and their carers, their own wellbeing is also a sacrosanct as well.

And so a focus on that really should be a part of the overall solution to this.

We can't fix one without the other.

We know that employee assistance programmes can be really helpful as well.

So if you're subscribed to one of those, encouraging your employees to make use of those, utilising own GPS is also very valuable too.

Sometimes their mental health need reaches a threshold where medical intervention is required.

So I certainly advocate seeing a doctor either for the child's mental health needs or your own mental health needs if that's the case.

We know that for Bupa PMI customers, that's private medical insurance customers, they have access to the My Bupa app where there are a suite of resources that can be useful from yoga classes to meditation and wellness classes as well.

I use the meditation ones and if I can do them, anyone can.

So please do feel free to make use of them because they're freely available and there's many out there.

So, you know, give it some trial and error if you don't find one that doesn't quite work for you at the off.

And then finally what I'd also say is do consider signposting your employees to external resources as well.

Sometimes it is the case that they don't want to bring their problems to work or perhaps take up solutions within the workplace.

And so their own GP externally.

.

External charities, external resources that you may be aware of can also be helpful too.

Gerry, how should small businesses handle accommodations related to carers that support young children with mental health concerns?

So ideally Holly, with support, empathy and understanding 'cause it's a tricky balancing act for employers.

On the one hand you've got employees and their issues and also you're trying to drive the business forward.

But the starting point is basically to have a conversation with the employees.

I always say to clients, speak to them.

In a digital age where it's very easy to Teams message someone, you know, meet them, take them out for a coffee, discuss what it is they're actually wanting to achieve and if possible, agree to it.

It's not always possible, however, so what I say is try to reach a compromise where both parties can walk away feeling that you've agreed on something really positive for both the employee and the employer themself as well.

Be consistent.

I love co consistency.

I always tell people to be consistent because you don't want to be accused of treating someone more favourably than the other.

So be consistent in your approach.

That's not to say however, just because you agree to something for one person that you automatically therefore have to agree to it for everyone else.

Some employers think that it's.

.

But it's not the case.

You can treat every single request on its own merits and its own situation and come up with a solution on each individual case.

Dr.

Naveen, where can caregivers get support if they are caring for a young person with mental health difficulties?

Yeah, well thank you for asking this question Holly, 'cause it gives me the opportunity to speak about a wonderful campaign we've been involved with at Bupa, which is called a Break Through and be Heard.

So this is a campaign which has a lovely visual to it and if I may I'll just speak to you about, because I think it really brings home visually what we are looking to uncover here.

We've got a child and a parent, and a carer, in two separate bubbles and they can see each other, but they can't quite reach each other.

And I think this really emphasises what we're looking to break through here.

So as part of that campaign, what we've done at Bupa is create a suite of resources where parents can look at booklets and hints and tips around how to start conversations and also children can look at grids of language that they can employ to sort of start conversations with their parents or carers that they want to as well.

These are all freely available on our website, so please do make use of them.

They're for anyone whether they're a Bupa customer or not.

And so we are very happy to share this widely because we feel it could be really impactful.

We're also conscious that sometimes partnering with external organisations enables us to leverage our important message in a much more powerful and profound way as well.

And one of our very key strategic partnerships is with an organisation called JAAQ who you may have heard of.

JAAQ standing for Just Ask A Question.

And this is a really fantastic platform where there are short form videos that really enable everyday speakers, I should say, to sort of speak to some of the things that people have difficulty understanding.

So for example, if you look at the depression page, there is a celebrity speaker speaking on that around what is depression, what does depression feel like?

How do I know if I'm depressed?

And we've also got content created specifically for children and young people to make it much more accessible to them.

The thing with these questions is you can type in the question into the programme, it will give you videos that are most relevant to your search and then present them to you.

And these are short form videos as I say.

So for people that may have a shorter attention span or don't wanna read reams of text, the videos are a really nice way to get some tangible insights into mental health conditions.

People don't often ask about these things in a way that doctors might, so I might look up the signs and symptoms of depression, but a young person might look up what does depression feel like?

And so JAAQ, we think, asks those questions in a really nice, user-friendly way and present to young people and their caregivers and parents with those solutions in a really nice way as well.

I'd also say, once again, please do encourage your staff to make use of resources that are out there for their own mental health and wellbeing.

So seeing their GP making use of employee assistance programmes shouldn't be underestimated.

These are really well tried and tested routes to seek help and support when required.

Bupa customers also have access to the family mental health line, so do make use of that if you would like to.

And then externally, we know that within the NHS and more widely in the voluntary sector there are charities such as children and Young People's Mental Health Coalition, Heads Together and Young Minds that can be really helpful and have a wealth of resources too.

So I'd be really happy to recommend those as well.

Fantastic.

We are nearly at the end of our first session, but let me recap a few points that really stood out for me.

I think a golden thread that comes through all of these sessions that I've been honoured to take part in is to build an open and empathetic culture.

One where people feel that they could come to you or those that you put in charge about anything, this I know can stop issues in their tracks.

Another would be to seek to listen and understand and not necessarily think you have to have the solution.

That is not to say that you should not have a well thought through handbook, you utterly should.

But having your issues heard, knowing why someone might be five minutes late into a meeting and giving that caring smile, it helps.

A problem shared is a problem halved.

And finally, remember the stress that caregivers are feeling.

If you've never experienced anything like this personally, educate yourself and if you have, remember that there is nothing more important than your children.

And so you want to make sure that those employees that you like, that you care for and you've invested in, don't feel that they have no choice, but to leave or want to work less.

Showing true empathy is very powerful.

So thank you Naveen and thank you to Gerry for an insightful conversation.

Next up we're going to be moving to the second part of the session, We are now moving to the second part of today's session where I'll be speaking to Amy White, founder of the Spectrum SENDvocate, who will share her personal experiences of dealing with children's mental health whilst being a working parent.

Welcome Amy.

I'm looking forward to chatting to you.

My first question is, could you share your personal experiences or challenges you've faced regarding children's mental health and how this has impacted your work or day-to-day life?

Yes, absolutely.

I have.

.

My eldest child, he has complex neurodivergent needs, which has co-occurring mental health conditions such as anxiety.

And do you know what?

That probably impacts him more than his neuro-divergence.

And this time last year I was working for a small firm and we'd taken him out of mainstream school that was not meeting his needs and had a significant impact on his mental health, which in turn triggered PTSD and he ended up being hospitalised.

He has Tourette's as part of his neuro-divergence and this meant that he was suffering with severe body ticks and this is why he was hospitalised.

And by being hospitalised it transpired that they were triggered by PTSD, which resulted from, you know, the anxiety of being in the wrong education setting for so many years.

And obviously at this time, you know, my first thoughts are always going to be for your child and their wellbeing, but straight away you're then thinking, "what?

" Yeah.

What am I gonna do?

How am I gonna deal with this?

Obviously on the surface, they were great and supportive and were like, "yes, you know, you've got to be there for your child.

" But there's a financial impact there because as much as they're supportive in that sense, there's no paid leave for that.

And then there is a stigma and you think.

.

Particularly sometimes you find in small businesses every cog matters.

So you are very aware that if you are not there, your job and role is not being done and that impacts on others, where I suppose sometimes if you work for larger businesses, there is a higher ratio, you know.

And I very much felt when returning to work the.

.

Like I said on the surface, it was very much like a tick box exercise.

Like, "oh, are you okay?

Is there anything we can do for you?

" But there was nothing that I felt I could reach out to.

I felt that I was potentially being judged by other members of staff, you know, and then you get another phone call that your child's not well again.

And you can almost feel like that eye rolling and you think, how do you get that balance.

Because your child's needs are always gonna come first and you don't want to be a burden to that employee.

And you that's what you start to feel like.

You start to feel like that you are a burden.

And then in turn, that then impacts on your mental health.

Yes.

Because you're like, "how do I keep all of these things running.

" It's like a circular sort of.

.

It is something that just keeps on triggering the next point, isn't it?

And I would almost add into that, you know, women are majority care givers.

Yeah.

And the way that slightly we are set up as well, so you've got guilt that starts to come in from the child's point of view, from the fact you're not doing good enough job at work, potentially that, and we'll talk about this impacting the family and actually as you said, your own mental health is now declining- And it's always at the bottom of the pile.

And you're the bottom of the pile at a time when you need to be your strongest.

Absolutely.

In your opinion, why do you think parents and carers avoid speaking up about their challenges?

I think stigma, I think you feel like you'll be judged as a parent.

Like are you not doing a good enough job as a parent?

I think you worry about losing your job because you think if there were to be cuts, would you be the first one to go because are you seen as an inconvenience because, you know, that reliability that they need is sometimes you can't always give because you've got to be there for your child.

Like if the school's ringing you and saying, "your child's in pieces, you've gotta come and get them," what parent wouldn't, you know.

.

You are always going to put that child first.

So, but that has a huge impact on your performance as an employee.

And then in turn you feel really like you are letting people down.

So I think if somebody could reach out to you and be like, "it's okay, and we are here to support this," that level of pressure that would then be alleviated from you would just mean so much, you know.

I just don't think it's talked about enough.

So you think that in your situation there was this tick boxing exercise that the right things were said, but actually the feeling, the emotion behind it, that sort of sense of authenticity I suppose wasn't there.

Which can, you know, for people watching now, you know, and you know, my whole life has been around small businesses.

It is hard running a small business, right?

And you now run your own.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you know, and so it is a very challenging situation.

And potentially, you know, we were talking about is that sort of coming together to try and make a plan, you know, that works for both parties?

They could have said things like, you know, "what can we do to help?

" Rather than just being like, "oh, we are here if you need to talk.

" You know, because it's very surface level.

And I think if employers could go that a little bit deeper and be like, "we understand you're going through a really difficult time and you might wanna talk about it, you might not," because everybody's different.

So some people might wanna go into work and talk about it because it's a kind of therapy for them.

And then some people don't wanna talk about it.

They wanna break from it.

They just want to go through the door and switch off.

But if they could sort of be like, "look, if you need this or, you know, if we could take some of your workload off of you to help your sort of productivity because that all gets impacted as well, you know.

I think those things would make you feel so much more heard, you know, and not a problem because that's what you begin to feel like.

I'm interested to know from an employer's point of view, potentially when you open up that conversation and you say, "what can I do for you?

" Potentially people are thinking right now, maybe not wanting to really air it, but I'm interested to talk to you about this is what do you think.

.

Do you think the employer might be surprised that by opening this up it's not just about what they might regard as.

.

What they can facilitate, but also that employee wants to be a good employee- Yeah, absolutely.

Wants to do a good job.

This isn't about- Nobody wants their child to suffer and nobody chooses to go through this.

You know, it's not something that we said, "actually yeah, we'll take a bit of that.

" Like you don't, you are put in a really difficult position.

Yeah.

So I think if you can have that open dialogue with your employer and be like, "look, I want to.

.

You know, I'm good at my job, I want do my job, but this is what's going on.

What can we do to find a balance?

" Yeah, and I think that's the thing, isn't it?

It's both sides.

Because I think that employee also wants to say, well listen, if we can leave that.

.

I'm going to get a situation like maybe a project's coming up, could we leave that project for another month?

Would that affect things?

'Cause if I could just use this time and we could delay that project, would that be okay?

'Cause then maybe someone might be like, "actually that's absolutely fine.

" We can delay that project.

It's communication- It's communication, but I think it's both sides, isn't it?

It's not just.

.

Because I think what we are trying to talk about here is employers creating the right environment for employees.

And I think sometimes people don't want to open that up because there is a worry that that might get into waters that they can't control.

But actually that employee wants to do a good job.

What could you do to facilitate this period of time that this employee's going through so much?

I think also as well, if you feel looked after in those moments by your employer, you will give so much more.

Oh yes.

Like the minute they're like, you know- You are in a more stable position maybe at home- Yeah.

And someone says, could you work late- Absolutely, you know, I've had friends who have got children who have got mental health, you know, conditions and she'd started a new job and she was very honest in the beginning and said, "look, my daughter's, you know, going through a difficult time.

" And they were like, "yes, that's fine, don't worry.

" And within a couple of weeks, because she'd had a few calls, they turned around and said to her, "when's your noise gonna go away?

" Wow.

And you just think, can you imagine the impact that then has?

And she just walked out that day because she was like, "I can't do this.

" Yet if there was compassion shown in that moment and so, you know, that's just.

.

Well, this is a company obviously without its culture and values sorted, without its handbook, without that longevity of looking after their employees.

As someone with firsthand experience of being a working parent and caring for a young child with mental health concern, how do you believe managers should initiate conversations to support carers in a workplace?

I think it's very individual to the person because it's not a one size fits all.

And I think we spoke about earlier that some people are really open to having those conversations with their employer and will tell them everything.

It'd be like a therapy session.

Yeah.

And then you get some that will just be like, "I can't talk about this.

Like, it's too difficult.

" So I think it's kind of navigating that part first.

And then if there are people that do want to talk about it, maybe like a buddy system, like you know, having that person you can go to and speak to, or look, I know you.

.

Or the person that doesn't wanna talk about it could say, "look, I know this might be too much for you to talk in person, so if you ever just wanna send me an email, know that my inbox is always open for you.

" It's that person centred approach and that personal touch to make you feel like that you are not a hindrance and that you matter and your mental health matters too, I think would make a huge difference.

Because I think there's been situations as well where some people can feel like they're almost being judged like, is this real?

Is this happening to you?

And it's like this is real, this is happening.

And actually right now I could really do with your support.

Absolutely and I think the culture and having that.

.

You are talking really there about empathy and every employee being a human being that the employer and the company care for is having that open culture.

And I think that employers and leaders should really lead by example.

You know, talking about, we.

.

In Holly and Co, we have a Monday morning meeting and everybody just can talk about how they're doing.

So we just.

.

It's really a connection point.

So we're about to start the week and we have a number of people within my team who have children with needs.

And actually some weekends are terrible.

Absolutely terrible.

The month is not going so well and so we just step in and connect and each person, they don't have to talk about it, they can talk about it.

But if you've had a very difficult week and at a weekend, this is a moment where you bring it out.

It's a space that's safe amongst team and people talk about it and you know, one of my employees started to talk about it slowly each Monday, not a lot, now after a year it's an open conversation where we are really.

.

You know, she's just done an amazing horse riding weekend.

It's a huge deal for her to do that.

And you gave that opportunity.

Yeah, we were so congratulate.

.

We were so thrilled for her.

Yeah.

And that's building a culture where it's now not something that's hidden- Not ashamed of it.

You're not ashamed of it, actually far from it.

We're in awe of her and what she has to do at the weekend or how much more she has to do than maybe somebody else.

Amy, could you share how your caring responsibilities have influenced your personal wellbeing and how you've managed to balance it with work?

I think one thing that I've always said to people is, you know, for them to really understand as a parent carer, you are only as happy as your unhappiest child.

Yeah.

So if your child is struggling, of course, you're going to.

.

And you feel it even more.

You feel it because it's your.

.

You feel at that moment, and that parent, it is my responsibility to make sure that my child is thriving and my child is happy.

And when they're on the floor, how do you move past that?

Like it has a significant impact on you.

And then as a parent, you've then got that responsibility of caring for your child and their mental health needs.

You've still got a job to go to.

You've still got a house to run, you've still got probably a marriage or relationship to facilitate.

You've got other children to care for.

Your mental health is absolutely at the bottom of the pile at this point because you are never the priority in that moment.

And sometimes it's not until you come out of it.

.

Because I think you go into survival mode.

And then it's not until you come out of it that you're like, "how did I even do that?

" And then it can almost have that ripple impact effect on you.

And it took me a long time to start to feel more like myself even to the point that now when.

.

You know, my son is now in a wonderful independent specialist school who really recognises and meets his needs, which has taken so much of the weight off of me.

And, but even now, when the school ring my phone, my instinct is my heart drops to the floor and I'm like, "oh my God.

" And the first thing they'll say to me is, "don't worry, everything's fine.

" Because they know I've almost got that trauma from getting calls from school, there was gonna be a problem, there was gonna be a crisis.

So trying to retrain my own brain through that and I think at that point as well trying to find the balance, it's a make or break moment.

And I decided, I walked away from working for a company because it wasn't working.

And I know so many other parent caregivers that have had to give up on their dreams, had to walk away from careers that they love.

But I was lucky that in some respects, it gave me an opportunity to then go into what I do now, you know, as an independent consultant actually supporting the parents on the journey that I was on to try and take some of that load off.

So actually I'll fight the education system for you so you can continue to be mom, you can continue to work and you continue to be that wife, you know- Gosh amazing.

And I mean, what an amazing thing you've done.

I just want to go back in that story to when we talk about your own wellbeing and actually when you were talking, you know, I really feel that this is the opportunity for employee.

.

Employers, leaders, brands to make their mark, right?

So if you had come into my organisation, and this is a point in time where I would hope that you would have that open conversation, we would've had.

.

I would've known how low you are, that you are at breaking point as a human being, forget the fact we work together, that you are at breaking point, this is the opportunity that I could have helped your life, made it easier.

The bond between us became incredibly strong.

Yeah.

Your advocation for the brand, what we did would become.

.

You know, would go through the roof as well.

That loyalty just- That loyalty.

And I would know as good human beings that if you wanna say like, "we'll make it up.

" It's not really about making up, but this will pay off.

This will all even itself out.

It will all- It shall pass.

It shall pass and it will all even itself out.

But what will come out of this is something quite beautiful.

Yeah.

And that is when you talk about your friend, the missing opportunity that they did not see that, that you had invested in an employee, you have invested that time, you found the right person, you've done all of those things and you let it go over a moment where what did you want that human being to do?

Did you want them not to care about their children?

Would you have employed that person if they didn't care about children?

Do you know what I mean?

Like I don't think any of us would.

And then to what you are now doing and how wonderful that is that you can be that voice for other parents in that lowest point and probably protect.

Because ultimately if you've not got a good culture and values, you might let your friend just leave.

Just absolutely leave.

Absolutely.

And so you are now almost protecting people staying in their- Being able to do it as well and.

.

But also I'm very passionate about saying to them, you know, "speak to your employer, you know, make them aware of this.

" Because there are multiple companies out there like yours that will open arms, aware of mental health, the importance of it this day.

And they wanna look after their staff because I always say know if you look after your staff, they'll look after the rest.

And it's kind of that investment, isn't it?

Into them and their wellness because if you've got staff that are feeling great and feeling happy, their productivity is gonna be so much better.

You know, if you've got somebody coming in feeling undervalued, feeling like a burden, they're struggling with everything that's going on in their personal life, what productivity are you really gonna get?

You are not.

And, you know, and that's not their fault.

Absolutely.

They're humans.

There's only so much, there's a breaking point, isn't there?

Absolutely.

Amy, for other employees who may not feel comfortable about speaking up about their challenges, what advice would you give them?

Again, I think it's the individual, isn't it?

Down to that person.

And if you feel comfortable to go in, some people could speak to their line manager, they could have like a great rapport and be like, "yeah, I can absolutely go and speak to them.

" And some people can't.

So maybe there's a colleague that you could confide in and be like, "I'm having a really difficult time.

" And that colleague could maybe be your voice and then go and speak and say, "look, she's really struggling.

" Or write it down.

Sometimes writing things down can really help because it's an emotional thing.

So when you're starting to talk about it, you're instantly gonna feel overwhelmed and then it just intensifies the whole situation.

So sometimes if you can write it down how you are feeling, you know, and say look, this is what's going on, but you know, I respect you as an employer, I respect my job, but my children are gonna come first.

I think it opens up that dialogue, doesn't it?

And you're almost saying, "look, I want to be here, but I need you to help me be here.

" Yeah, absolutely.

And then them being aware of what actually is available in that moment to help and support them.

If you could look back at your time, what would be the top couple of things that you wish that your employer had provided you?

I think the first thing that anybody would say is financial stability.

Because again, you know, we are living in a world everyone's worried.

You know, it is a financial crisis, isn't it?

And nobody knows how long that's gonna go on.

And I think in that moment when I was laying in a hospital bed with my child, I did not need to be worrying about my mortgage being paid that month.

You know, and thinking.

.

That's just a whole other added level of pressure, isn't it?

So actually if you.

.

Again, there has to be a cutoff point, doesn't there?

So if an employer could say, "look, you know, we are going to give three days or whatever, we are gonna cover you, you're gonna be fine or even half paid.

" Just something to alleviate that pressure I think would be a huge help.

Because again, you know, they say money doesn't make the world go round, but it does and it has a huge impact on people's mental health.

So, you know, you go to work to provide for your family, right?

And then if you are laying and thinking, "I can't provide for my family right now," that's a whole other added pressure.

I think also knowing that there is no stigma, that they're not being judged, you know, and sort of give them.

.

If they're a good employee, say, "look, you are great at your job, you are valued here and we know that you are going through a hard time and we are here and ready to listen if you need us.

" That just giving that person that bit of validation, it just takes that pressure off.

And at no point did I feel like that.

And it just felt like.

.

I felt almost like a cat on a hot tin roof.

You know, you're just like, "oh god, like I'm trying to balance all these plates," and then I was scared to walk into the office.

The fear that you felt going back in thinking, "what are people gonna say?

Or if I get a phone call today and I've gotta leave again.

" So if I'd have had that reassurance saying, "look, we know you haven't chosen this path, we know you are having a really difficult time and actually we are here to look after you.

" That's huge.

Gosh, gosh, I wish I had happened to you.

Life changing, it would be, yeah.

Although- Although it led me to path where I now.

.

Exactly.

You have your own business.

Exactly, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, this has been such an interesting conversation.

Thank you so much for sharing your- Thank you for letting me be a voice for everyone- Personal experience and I think that just brings to life and it makes people feel the realities of what might be going on in their own offices without them maybe even knowing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Maybe they need to ask those questions.

But thank you so much for sharing your authentic truth with us.

Thank you.

I wish you everything in the future.

Thank you so much, thank you.

I loved everything we spoke about, but I'll be taking these things away.

Number one is to care deeply.

Amy was on the floor of her life and all she wanted to do was be the voice for her son, because who else was going to do that?

Don't we want employees who take responsibility seriously, who show love, how can we make them feel empowered?

Another would be no one should feel ashamed of what they're going through.

As Amy said, no one would choose this path.

So how do we allow their experience and their journey not to be something that they feel that they need to hide?

And finally, this is an opportunity to have a bond with a member of staff for life.

A moment for you to live your culture and values where other staff will observe your behaviour favourably.

And on top of all this, it will build your brand and what people feel about it.

There is so much to treating people well outside of their day-to-day roles.

We hope you found this useful.

See you next time.